Love yourself and Minimize Perfectionism. Seeds of Self-Love with Dr. Rowena Winkler

Perfectionists – recovery is just around the corner. Tune into insight and tips from Dr. Rowena Winkler as she talks about using communication, along with holistic and spiritual modalities such as astrology, human design, and tarot, to help women tap into self-love, build confidence, get unstuck, and make a change.⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

Dr. Rowena Winkler — also known as the Inner Muse Mentor — is a women’s coach and intuitive communication strategist who helps clients find their voice and divine authenticity through a combination of spiritual tools and practical strategies. Using her Ph.D. in Communication, along with holistic and spiritual modalities such as astrology, human design, and tarot, Dr. Winkler’s coaching method enables women to tap into self-love, build confidence, get unstuck, and make a change. As a PR and marketing professional with over 15 years of experience, Dr. Winkler is also a higher Ed consultant and instructor who develops and teaches courses in strategic communication and writing. 

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Seeds of Self-Love Rowena

Rowena: in my journey walking away from tenure track professor, full-time academia, which that came with its own.

Rowena: Feelings of shame and guilt and like, oh, now, you know, I don’t wanna let anyone down. Having conversations with my husband about, I wanna leave my nine to five digital marketing agency job because I feel really strongly about this. I feel like I could have impact to make a difference.

Rowena: It’s not easy, especially when conventionally it’s like, why would you do that? Why would you, your, your night glass up, you have a baby on the way.

Rachel: Today we are talking with Rowena and she is going to share her wisdom about self-love. I met Rowena a couple months ago online and she has so many dynamic things about her and we’re gonna get to learn a little bit.

Rachel: It’s gonna make you wanna follow her and engage even more. Rowena. Please tell us a little bit about what you do right now and or what you used to.

Rowena: Thank you so much, Rachel, first of all, for having me. It’s such a pleasure to be able to chat with you about myself and what I do and to connect with your community.

Rowena: Hi everyone. I’m Dr. Rowena Winkler, and I call myself the Inner Muse Mentor. Now, what the heck does that mean? Basically, I use my experiences as a professor. I have a PhD in communication. I’m also a creative and an astrologer. I also read taro and, and I do human design. I use all of these tools to help women tap into what I call that inner muse, which is that voice that because of conditioning or the need for external validation, or in my case, dealing with perfectionism.

Rowena: Homegirl gets a little, little dim that we can’t, we can’t hear her. And so I work with women to find that inner muse and use a variety of tools and strategies and, and best practices based off of what’s worked for me and for my other clients to, to help women find their voice and tap into that divine feminine, authentic.

Rachel: Mm. I love that. I love that. As you were talking, I was thinking about, there’s a quote about all children are artists and the true challenges bec still maintaining that when you’re an adult. And when I think about the muse, I think about creativity and, and the things inside of us that wanna come out.

Rachel: Mm-hmm. . And I’m curious, have you had, was there ever a point in your life where you felt it was stronger? This self expression and the communication, or have you had like lags where it wasn’t such a big way that you were able to express yourself? Like I’m a little bit curious how that has looked for you over the course of your life.

Rowena: Yes, and I love how you’re exactly right. It’s tied to the muse is because of that creativity, where the come from and Greek mythology. So I am a creative myself. I’m, I do musical theater performance, so I love to sing and dance and act. I’ve met my husband ballroom dancing at the University of Maryland in College Park, go Turfs,

Rowena: And for me, that part of me, that part of my life has been a through line. You know, performing and singing in particular is my therapy. It’s what grounds me. It’s, it’s, Brings me joy and gratitude, but in regards to other times in my life, absolutely. You know, that’s why as a teacher and a mentor, I’ve, I’m very intentional with what I say to students and, and how I connect with students because I’m sure you’ve had experiences and the folks watching have had experiences where one thing that a teacher says to you can change the trajectory of your entire creative life.

Rowena: I mean, How many times have we heard that a child no longer wants to engage in drawing or in writing because of what someone has said about the work that they do? But here’s the thing, we are all creatives. We all have the capacity to be creative and to create. It’s just exactly what you said. It’s finding.

Rowena: Finding the, the space and the freedom to be able to express ourselves in a way where we don’t feel judged or are held back. Mm, yes.

Rachel: Oh, that’s so good. And I love how you say it’s been for you. This creative expression has been this through line because that’s a really nice way of staying grounded despite all the different transitions in life and different stages.

Rachel: When did you, like as a child, when were you first in a music class or a dance class? Tell, let us like get a little insight into what was it like for little

Rowena: Ro . I love these questions, especially since adult Rowina has been doing a lot of little rowina work, so it’s very pop of mind for me right now, now.

Rowena: Oh, good, good, good. So my mother has, Cassette tapes for folks who still remember how to record with, with audio cassette tape of when I was two, three years old, singing Jingle Bells singing, you know, singing songs. Alvin in the Chipmunks theme song. So I’ve always been a performer of sorts, right? You know, I’m a Pisces at my astrological science, Pisces, so create very creative sign.

Rowena: And so I’ve always enjoyed, you know, that creative side of me and. That’s something that I’ve always been interested in, but I didn’t do my first musical. I was in sixth grade. There was a community theater program in our town, and my sister and I did our first show. It was Lil Abner. I don’t even know if anyone knows that show.

Rowena: It’s not as well known. Yeah. But that, that was it. And. I did musical theater, community theater. I did the shows in high school that, my goodness, doing theater in high school was so. It was so transformative for me. We, I had an amazing director who, who really pushed us to, you know, we did shows like La Mazara and Into the Woods, you, these productions that aren’t your typical high school theater shows.

Rowena: Mm-hmm. . But it was just an amazing way to tap into, and that’s what I love about theater and art, right? It’s a way to, to explore the human experience in this very. Interesting way by building these worlds and creating these characters. But I will say what I’ve also found as I’ve gotten older and reflected on these experiences is for the longest time it was easier for me to play a character than to be ro, if that makes sense.

Rowena: Mm-hmm. , that was something that had come up in college and, and afterward for sure. .

Rachel: Ooh, I’m really feeling that. Yeah. So thank you for being. Courageous enough to say that with us and say it out loud. I don’t know how much you talk about this specific detail, but it feels, so, what I’m feeling in my heart right now is like, it it the compassion that you feel for yourself now, but also the awareness of like, wait a minute.

Rachel: I can be someone on stage, but when can I be my full self off of

Rowena: stage? Yeah, yeah. No, thank you. I received that and something that I’ve been working on and I work with my clients on is mm-hmm. , this intentional vulnerability. Right. That being able to share these things. Mm-hmm. , I know. We’re challenging and, and can be challenging to bring up.

Rowena: Mm-hmm. , these stories are what magnetizes people to you, and, and there’s a resonance and there’s, there’s a relevancy there, right? Cause that’s how we can connect with each other is by sharing these stories. As I mentioned, I, I’ve dealt with perfectionism. I’m a recovering perfectionist. There are parts of that that still come through

Rowena: Mm-hmm. now in my awareness. Yeah, that that was a mask, right? That was another character that I was playing in in order to show up in a way that I thought people would, would love me. Would value me. Mm-hmm. , and it took a lot of work. As I mentioned, I’ve been hanging out with little Rowina and just yeah, telling her that she’s okay as she is, and that despite what has happened that.

Rowena: She’s cared for and loved, you know, so that’s been the work that, that I’ve been delving into. And I, and, you know, related I work through with my clients. Yes.

Rachel: Oh gosh. And there’s a couple things I wanna get into, but first I wanna ask you this question. Sure. Cause I think I have my own way of realizing, oh, here’s what I’m putting on a mask, or putting on a face, or trying to be a certain way, because that’s what other

Rowena: people.

Rachel: Do you have a way that either for yourself or when you’re working with your clients, you can

Rowena: dig into how do,

Rachel: how do you know if it’s a mess? Because when you mentioned that with perfectionism, I was thinking. I’m a perfectionist too, and or recovered or whatever. Who knows what stage I’m truly

Rowena: Exactly.

Rowena: It’s, it’s cyclical, right? We’re like, we’re back there again. ,

Rachel: but, but I’m thinking, well, I could see that. Somebody might just think that’s who I am. It’s not a mask, it’s just this is just me. This is the expectation. So is there a way that you think we. Figure out what are the masks that are either that we’re having to effort and try and be someone that we’re not truly, or we’re putting on a face for others that doesn’t really feel authentic.

Rachel: Like how do you know when you’re wearing a mask?

Rowena: Sure. Yeah. That’s a fantastic question. So, as I mentioned, I, I study and use human design in the work that I do. Mm-hmm. , I, my type, I’m a sac generator, which means that I get cues from my sac energy when, when, you know, it’s usually a yes no. And so that’s one of the first indicators, you know, I get a very strong Aha.

Rowena: Or an Uhuh. No thank you. Right. Mm. And I. Before, because of being a people pleaser, because of wanting to show up with this mask, I would ignore the no thank you and go through with it anyway, and then find out that I’m frustrated because I am doing this other thing that I, I don’t wanna do or I don’t like, or that’s not in alignment for me.

Rowena: And so that was one way that I tap into that. Another, another indicator for me is, Is that there, there’s just, you know, you know this, right? Like intuitively, you, you can sense because I also, I, I’m, I’m an anxious human, so the rumination, right? Mm-hmm. , like the, the constant check, like hyper vigilance and checking of myself when I’m putting on a facade is very evident.

Rowena: Whereas when I know that I. Being my true, authentic self when I’m in a flow state, when I am a being creative, there’s nothing. There’s like, I’m so grounded and so in the moment and so joyous and just being with my people and, and yeah. Not having to check every single thing that I think and say and do.

Rowena: Mm-hmm. and . That’s exhausting. . Yeah. That’s exhausting

Rachel: work. Right. Oh, I agree. And as I, I love all that you’re sharing because I’m thinking there are instances where, and I’m pretty good about checking myself now, but I think it’s a habit of learning if I’m over analyzing, okay, what do I say to this person?

Rachel: Yeah. How do I say it? Like, if I’m trying to manage this situation and thinking about something day after day after day mm-hmm. , and like, well, maybe I should say it, that, and, and I’m all about honesty, so I’m not gonna lie. Like in some ways it’d be easier if I. Make up a lot and then move on. Right. But it’s like, how can I be honest to myself?

Rachel: How can I be honest to them? But then there’s still the part of me that’s like, but I wanna let them down easy. Or yeah, they want me to do say yes to this thing, but I don’t wanna do that. And, and so yeah, that overanalyzing then, and this is maybe a people pleasing mask of like, I can. Or I’m, I’m, I’m overthinking and thinking all of these things because I don’t just wanna say, no, I don’t wanna do that.

Rachel: Right. Right. Which, which would be, in some instances, that’s, that’s what I wanna say. That’s, that’s the true me. And then I’m like, no, I don’t wanna do it. Woo. That responsibility is gone.

Rowena: Right. I heard this on a podcast. I don’t remember which podcast or who said this, so that’s, I don’t have the attribution, but someone said on a podcast that I listened to recently, That setting boundaries is a loving act.

Rowena: Mm-hmm. , and that just hit me really hard because again, I mentioned I’m a Pisces, I’m a water sign, so I , I call permeable boundaries. Mm. So, because I just have, I, my heart chakra is like, I just, I love and care for so much about my people and what that I, and I do this with my daughter, you know, with my two and a half year old, it’s hard for me to, to say no because I just wanna, Be there for, for people, but at what cost?

Rowena: Right. And that’s another, that’s another indicator of the mask, right? Like is, is burnout and, and overwhelm and stress and not, not prioritizing yourself over other people. And so, mm-hmm. , yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s those reframes that have really helped me a lot is like, no, no. Setting this boundary, not only.

Rowena: Shows that I, I honor and value myself and my time and my energy, but it’s also making space for something that’s more in alignment for me and more what I wanna do to come into my life. Right? Yes.

Rachel: Yeah. And, and I’m, I’m kind of running with this idea right now of like a tangible, practical thing that sums up a lot of what you’ve been saying right now.

Rachel: What about a self-love minute? And it could be a meditation or it could just be a moment where you check in, like you said, because I think if we’re never taking the time to check in, we’re not gonna realize these habitual masks that we’re wearing and, and the behaviors that we’re used to having. But if you have this self-love minute every day where you take a moment to check in, you take a moment to look at.

Rachel: Okay. What am I getting ready to agree to? Or am I having boundaries that really honor me? Am I, am I saying no when the answer is no? Or am I loving any, everyone else but neglecting the person who I am and, and so I think all of those can really help people to cultivate self love of giving themselves that moment.

Rachel: Take a take a take a quiet moment, however works best for people and just tune in and see what does my intuition

Rowena: tell me about this. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And, and here’s the thing, right Rachel, is that we’re, we’re all intuitive. We all have that intuition. Mm-hmm. , it’s just a matter of, of cultivating it and providing the space for it.

Rowena: And listen, y’all, I’m, I’m originally from New Jersey. I’m a northeast. Eastern person. So I get the like, go, go, go, hustle, hustle, hustle, . And you know, that energy has served me well for a long time until it no longer didn’t and I was sick and burnt out. Right? So yeah, being able to take that self-love minute and, and honoring that because we bombard, you know, we overload our calendars with all these distractions.

Rowena: Sometimes the sitting with ourselves is super uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. , and we don’t like it because we’re so used to being inundated with messages, whether it’s from the media or from, you know, we’re just, there’s sensory overload, you know? Explosion, . Yeah. That it, that’s, that’s the challenge. As you and I know, taking that breath, that beat, as you mentioned a minute, literally a minute, right?

Rowena: Mm-hmm. , you know, I’m currently potty training my two and a half year old and she has to sit on the potty for a minute. It’s not that long. . Yeah. I’m dealing with it right now with my kiddo, right? It just a minute and a beat to be able to, to know where you’re at. If it’s not, you know, good or, or what have you, that’s okay too.

Rowena: Just being open to leaning into those feelings and, and being curious about it and exploring, maybe there is a root. As I mentioned, I have this perfectionism, which as one of my face, Dr. Bne Brown talks about the perfectionism. It stems from these feelings of insecurity and, and not wanting to, to be judged or not wanting to show up because we’re afraid.

Rowena: Showing up without being perfect is no one’s gonna like it, so. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. I think that that’s a very valuable practice that you’re bringing up here.

Rachel: Mm. Yeah. Oh, I agree. And I, yeah. I’m glad you brought up the, the. Showing up and not wanting to be judged, being all interlinked with perfectionism. One.

Rachel: One of the things that you said earlier, I wanna come back to, cause I have ways that I work with my own inner child and, and it sounds like you have a practice. I don’t know if it’s the short term future or if you’re always working with your inner child, but can you tell people a little bit? Is that a way that you’re, it’s increasing your self love or increasing your ability to say yes to the things you wanna say yes to, or say no to the things that it’s a no.

Rachel: Like either what does that practice look like or tell us just a little bit more so we can. Have some insight, maybe people will think, okay, I wanna do that with my inner child.

Rowena: Sure, sure. No, I, I love that you went back to that because it’s been such an important practice for me that I’ve started doing past couple years.

Rowena: But I’ve really, I think cancer season in particular, because that’s that mother nurture energy, I really dove in deep with it, and it’s been super powerful. So you one. One of the previous questions you asked was about, you know, what sparked my creativity or how, so what’s interesting is that I’ve always been a very vibrant child, very, you know, curious and precocious and singing, dancing.

Rowena: And what’s really fun is that my little one is very similar. So it’s really fun to see. So I have like, Living representation of little rowita in my little one. So that’s been fun, . But I unfortunately experienced some, some big tea trauma when I was 11. You know, I was sexually abused and that that was, you know, a.

Rowena: An experience that shifted things in upon reflection. I think that’s what really kicked off the perfectionism and the academic performance, because I made a choice. If I do really well in school and do what I’m supposed to do, that perhaps I can’t get hurt. Right. So, and it was through that inner child work where I was able to sit and invite little Rowena in and, and literally have conversations with her mm-hmm.

Rowena: and be able to, to, to let her know that even though this experience has happened, She’s loved and that she’s so strong and she, you know, again, it was another reframe where I moved from a victim to a survivor and that despite what happened, I, I came out of it and I’m doing really well. So that, that was one piece of it that motivated me, cuz I’ve, I realized.

Rowena: In that traumatic experience that changed everything, as I’m sure you can imagine, right? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. You know, I’m not alone in this experience when these things happen, when we’re young, these mm-hmm. traumatic experiences, they, it shapes the way we are as adults. Mm-hmm. Something, a, a newer thing that I’ve been tapping into, and I will credit the almost 30 podcast for.

Rowena: Is inner team work? Mm. So, Hanging out with my teenage self, not just little Rowina, but teenager Rowina, who as I mentioned, was a theater performer and honors kid. All this, all this stuff. But as I’m sure you can gather, being a teenager is its own unique . Mm-hmm. Beast. And for example, I went to the Back Street Boys concert over Labor Day weekend and got to experience.

Rowena: The Backstreet Boys, which was who I listened to in high, right? So just becoming things like that. And as I mentioned, music is very, like, that really hits my soul hard. So being able to like scream my, my little heart out and to dance, I, I turned to my friend. I said, my entertain is so satisfied. So things like that, music, you know, if you loved to color, if you, if you love to write poetry.

Rowena: That was another thing. I loved writing poems in high school and stopped because I had a teacher that compared me to write. So right. There was something that happened. I went away from it, and then I’m picking it up again. So finding those things that brought you joy when you were younger to connect with that inner child, that inner teen mm-hmm.

Rowena: and to, yeah, to immerse yourself in and tap into those experiences has been really helpful.

Rachel: Yes. Yes. I love that. Thank you so much. And I’m glad you brought up again of this. You know, I don’t think some of these teachers and other people in our lives, sometimes it maybe is malicious, why they say things, but a lot of times I think it isn’t.

Rachel: I think they’re just giving their opinion. Right. But, but it’s very easy to be like, well, that’s the gospel truth, and that’s the way it’s now, this is, you know, reality has spoken. Yeah. If you kept with, oh, I write terrible poems, or You only write poems like so and so. Well, I’m not my own self. I’m like, so and so.

Rachel: I can’t do it anymore. If you stuck with that belief, you would be missing out on the writing of the poetry. And I’m thinking about, for me, I have. Recently I started taking voice lessons and it, I recalled a time for my childhood when someone told me that I wasn’t singing very well, and that made me stop singing so much because I would just hear what they said almost every time I tried to sing and, mm-hmm.

Rachel: And so taking the voice lessons. One, I’m actually learning how to sing, so it’s like, right, maybe that person was accurate, but I had no idea how to sing. I was just singing from the joy in my heart, not necessarily hitting the right notes, but now I’m learning how to hit the right notes and it’s like I can feel the joy and that self-expression is coming out now, and it’s allowing me.

Rachel: Well, I consciously had allowed to, okay, I’m gonna release that belief just because that one person said it doesn’t mean it’s true. And, and then I let myself have the experience again of enjoying the thing that I enjoy because anyone listening, I feel we probably all have at least one thing or maybe several that somebody told us we were bad at or some version of that, and we just let that be it and we closed the book on it.

Rachel: Mm-hmm. . What about letting, letting ourselves say, well, that was just one person’s opinion. Like, I wanna see, what if I take this further? What if I try it out a little

Rowena: bit more? Yeah. Yeah. Related. I had a conversation just yesterday with a friend about, about our parents. So similar, right? Yes. In terms of authority figures that say things that resonate with us.

Rowena: I feel more so our parents. Absolutely. What? Mm-hmm. . Something that we talked about is how to remind ourselves that, to, that our, our parents are, are human beings too, right? And that given, given the context, given the environment, given the circumstances, given the information that they had, They’re doing the best that they can.

Rowena: Exactly, and I feel that, I definitely have empathy now more so as a parent myself, right? That when I became a mom, I said, oh, okay. That, that shifted my perspective a lot on, yeah, we’re doing the best that we can because. I know their experiences when, when I look back and, you know, I don’t think, as you mentioned, I don’t think it was intentional, but mm-hmm.

Rowena: my, my parents, I’m, I’m an immigrant child. My parents came here from the Philippines and so they, they wanted my sister and I to, to perform well and to, to create a good life here in the United States. And so, I think I internalize that a lot, as well as my perfectionism. Like, oh, well I have to do well on this thing to, to please my parents so that they don’t feel like they sacrificed and came to this country.

Rowena: Mm-hmm. not knowing anybody for what, you know, so we put a lot of push on ourselves. Right.

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. And thank you for sharing. Element of it too, cuz I’m sure we could probably do a whole podcast just on

Rowena: that . Absolutely. Oh goodness. I know. How much time do you have about

Rachel: and, and and I’m reading a book.

Rachel: We were dreamers I think is the name of it, about, I forget his name, but he’s an actor and his parents came over from, they moved from China to Canada. Right. And so him talking about, His, his experience of being an immigrant is making me think, there’s so many different things that can come up and, and like you said, it’s, then it’s like I have to, I have to succeed not just for me, but it’s the sacrifices my family made, honor and all of that.

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Rachel: And when you’re a kid, that might seem like a lot to, to have on your shoulders. Yeah. And. When you’re an adult, it’s like, well, when do you learn? Okay, I can turn that off or turn the dial down, or I only need this sometimes like let me use it when I’m consciously using it, but not let it drive me to the point of irrational.

Rachel: Extreme, you know, driving me to burnout type of Yes. Uh, Energy.

Rowena: Oh my goodness. Yeah. That, that resonates so much. And I know for me, and I would hope that it doesn’t get to this point for other folks that are listening. It was when my father passed away from cancer in 2013. You know, he got really. I was finishing my dissertation for my doctorate.

Rowena: I actually dedicated my dissertation to my dad thinking that he would be okay. But he passed away in, in, in 2013, and several months later, after, you know, I got my PhD in May and he passed away in October. That shifted everything. Then it was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What is all this work for? Mm-hmm.

Rowena: you know, what, what am I prioritizing here? What is my legacy here? What am I leaving behind? Are these achievements? Are all these things that I’m working so hard for? Is this, this, this need to be perfect? Is it, you know, worth it in the end, if. If I have no connection, no family, no, no love and joy in my life just being mm-hmm.

Rowena: that, that really, that really changed a lot for me personally. Mm.

Rachel: Yes. Thank you. And did, was there also an element I’ve known other people who they reach a point to where they realize how much of this am I doing for them and how much am I doing for me? And it’s a really big self-love piece to. Well, now I’m going to actually build the legacy I want to, to pour myself into the work.

Rachel: That means a lot to me, and hopefully my family will enjoy it or respect it or honor it, but maybe they won’t. But this is, this is the path I have to

Rowena: take. I feel like a lot of young people can contend with this, especially when it comes to college and majors and I, you know, working with, in, when I was a professor, working with undergraduate students, I heard this a lot.

Rowena: Well, my, mm-hmm. , my parents want me to go to med school, or my parents want me to, to do this and that, but I really wanna do this. And yeah, it’s, it’s fascinating because , I’m smiling because the work that I’m doing now, my journey into entrepreneurship, which by the way, That the time we’re recording is, hasn’t been very long.

Rowena: Mm-hmm. , the, my, I built my business as a result of the pandemic, right? Mm-hmm. , where I feel like during covid 19, this collective retreat of, oh, again, what am I doing here? What, what is my life? And then b, having my daughter and mm-hmm me wanting to role model for her. If you want, you know, you shouldn’t have to do what people expect you to do.

Rowena: If you in your heart and soul have this desire to, to do something, then, then go for it. And so, yeah, that, that, those were two. Events or two moments where that really finally, after many years of wanting to be a business owner, I was like, okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna go for it. And, and that meant, you know, in my journey walking away from tenure track professor, full-time academia, which that came with its own.

Rowena: Feelings of shame and guilt and like, oh, now, you know, I don’t wanna let anyone down. And, you know, having conversations with, with my husband about, I wanna leave my nine to five digital marketing agency job because I feel really strongly about this. I feel like I could have impact to make a difference.

Rowena: It’s not easy, especially when conventionally it’s like, why would you do that? Why would you, your, your night glass up, you have a baby on the way. I mean, you know, you know Rachel, like when the feeling is strong, when when mama universe, you know, is, is full at you, you gotta go. And I will say, when my dad passed away, that was also the time of my Saturn return, which was all like, no, that was a like astrologically, my, my butt was getting kicked around a little bit anyway, was like, yeah, you need to go girl , you need to leave and, and do this other thing.

Rowena: So yeah, it’s just fascinating looking back on how these things happen in our lives. Make such a difference in you. Sometimes you don’t even find out until years later like, oh, oh, that that happened because of, of this thing over here. Mm-hmm. .

Rachel: Yes. Yeah. Oh my goodness. That’s amazing. Mm-hmm. . Well, I I have one kind of final question I think, which is, when you were talking about the theater, it was making me think about what if someone, we’ve talked a little bit about the college age mindset, that can come up a lot, but what if somebody.

Rachel: Middle age or even older than that, and they’re suddenly realizing, I wanna get involved in community theater, or I wanna, I wanna learn how to sing, but they’re also feeling embarrassed or shy or they’re kind of thinking that’s for young people or I, this feeling of what if, what if they feel that they’re too old or they missed an opportunity like dance.

Rachel: I know. And sports too. It’s like those are fields. The people starring in the events are, you know, teenagers in young twenties, not, not 40, 50, 60 year olds. So I don’t know if you have any thoughts for people in a older age bracket, but I’m curious what kind of encouragement you could give to someone who’s in that stage of life who’s starting to feel this desire to do something.

Rachel: They’re also not letting themselves go for it. Maybe because of age or other factors. Maybe it’s time too. Oh yeah. We don’t have as much time when you have kids in a job or a business or whatever to have a lot

Rowena: of hobbies. Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s a, that’s a great question. So one of the aspects of the framework that I use with my coaching clients, the first piece of it is model.

Rowena: And what I mean by that, Looking, seeking out role models. And these could be people that you know in real life or people that you aspire to be, right? So for me personally, Oprah is one of my role models of who I aspire to be. And something that’s helped me a lot because I, I totally get it and I’m, I’m not in my, you know, fifties or sixties, but I’m like, oh no, I’ve missed all this time because of blah, blah, blah.

Rowena: Look at the success stories of folks that we admire. You hear these stories, You know, authors or performers or mm-hmm. or entrepreneurs. Had several failed ventures who mm-hmm. went through a really tough time. I mean, it, it’s, it’s real life examples of that hero’s journey that we mm-hmm. go through this valley of darkness or this time of, of finding ourselves.

Rowena: But then when we come out of it and find good mentorship and find community, listen, I’m a ballroom dancer and I’ve done competitive ballroom. There are folks out there, there are senior levels of ballroom competition. It’s never too late to, to dance. And the research shows that doing things like singing and dancing in the arts are really good for our, you know, for for our brains and for, yeah.

Rowena: You know for memory. And so there are many benefits to, to doing the, doing creative arts there. So many opportunities online, right? Mm-hmm. , so even just three YouTube classes with, with writing or, or singing. There, there, there is a plethora of information out there, and I would just say to those folks that.

Rowena: If there’s something that you wanna do, gosh, I mean, there are people getting PhDs, right? You know? Yeah. Like from an educational standpoint, if there’s something that you’ve, you’ve wanted to do and feeling that you may have missed the boat on that, I would invite you to, to ask yourself where, where that’s coming from, because maybe the root cause of it is these like feelings of not enoughness or scarcity.

Rowena: Right. When. Exploring that, as we talked about before, and, and realizing that no, we, we have so many resources nowadays at our disposal to, to learn all the things like than ever before that and communities tied to that. Mm-hmm. , so that you have folks alongside you on the journey. I think, I don’t know, I, and maybe this is me just.

Rowena: That’s my vibe as anything is possible, right? Mm-hmm. , that the possibilities are infinite and endless. . Mm-hmm. . Well,

Rachel: I agree with you on that. Well, that’s good. Yes, and I mean, scientifically the universe is expanding and there’s so much going on. I, all of that was so good, and I, I especially was feeling the vibe of the models and the mentors.

Rachel: Right now I’m taking a program, From a YouTuber who I really admire and it’s amazing to me. Cause for, I’ve watched his videos for years and now I’m on live calls with him and yes, it’s, it’s not a one on one. I’m in the group, but still sure. It’s like you say of it’s not, Too late to engage. We can find the mentor, the people who light you up with a fire every time you see them, and, and remembering, okay, they, they’re doing it.

Rachel: So there’s a possibility that I can do it as well. And, and keeping that, that idea and that belief in yourself at the forefront as you engage with it. And I, I also love how you brought. That is good for the brain to do these new things and that makes it even more fun cuz then it’s like, okay, it’s fun.

Rachel: There’s, there’s music. If we’re talking about music or dancing, it’s good for your brain. You’re gonna meet new people. Like why? What’s the reason not to do it? Really? There’s so many reasons to do it.

Rowena: Yeah. Push past the resistance, you know that oftentimes, You’re meeting your edge with something. Mm-hmm.

Rowena: you listen to that inner ous Right. Sometimes it’s like, yeah, yeah. You’re, you’re good to go. You’re safe. It’ll, it’ll be transformative. I mean, I know for, for me, I started doing ballroom when I was. Finishing up my PhD. I tell people I would not have finished my dissertation without ballroom dancing because I would write and then I would dance

Rowena: Oh, I love that. And then, yeah, and I met my husband and you know what I mean? So you never know. Yes.

Rachel: Yeah. Aww, that’s so wonderful. Well, tell us one or two places that you want listeners to. Keep up with you to follow along and, and I’ll have lots of links below, but if there’s a place where you, that’s your top place where you like to show up in the online

Rowena: world.

Rowena: Sure, sure. So my website is rowena and you can find me on Instagram at rb winkler

Rachel: PhD. Mm. Wonderful. And I, I love, I feel, You’re such an approachable person who has come from academia. I mean, I, I was in, I, I did a master, so I didn’t go full on PhD route. But, and, and not to stereotype in a negative way, but for some people, academics are a little bit unapproachable or they’re just so high level that it’s, they’re not relat.

Rachel: And I don’t feel that with you, like your relatability. Maybe because it was communication or maybe because you love the art so much, it’s very easy to engage with you, and it also to me, is an extra delight of your wealth of experience from different areas of life. And the work that you do with people, how it’s astrology and human design and, and I’m sure it’s you’re bringing in your professor ideas Yeah.

Rachel: And your artist theater musical ideas. And so what a, what a beautiful combination you have. And I love that. It’s, it’s out of the box and you’re. It feels to me at least that you’re not afraid to be out of the box and be a person who has all of these qualities that then it’s like, well, I can work with people in so many good ways because of all of the interests and

Rowena: expertise that you have.

Rowena: Well, I really appreciate that, Rachel. I really, I, I receive all of that and it, it took me a while to get here. As I mentioned, all that work that I’ve done over the years, ive finally embraced the fact that I am a multihyphenate, that I mm-hmm have a lot of gifts and talents that I’m working toward integrating in the, in the work that I do.

Rowena: And yeah no, no offense taken. I left academia full-time for a reason. cause of the. The archetypes that, that you mentioned. So yeah, no, that dually noted, and I wholeheartedly agree .

Rachel: Mm-hmm. . Yes. Oh, good. And I hope that a listener who feels they’re very multihyphenate, multi-passionate, sees you and sees another example.

Rachel: She seems happy. She seems like she’s finding her way. She’s not like struggling and desperate, and. You’re, you’re blossoming with all of that, those parts of you. So I love, thank you so much for modeling that for all of us. Yeah.

Rowena: I will leave you all with one more quote. This is, and this will take us full circle.

Rowena: I think this is something that I’ve tweaked a little bit from Ben Plat, who won the Tony Award for Dear Evan Hansen, the musical mm-hmm. . And the quote is this, what makes you different, makes you powerful. What makes you different, makes you powerful. So I would leave folks listening. Just remember that those things that make you feel weird or different or strange or small, that’s your light.

Rowena: That’s what’s going to draw people to you. That is, that is your charisma. That is your gift. So don’t, don’t, don’t take that lightly. It’s really powerful and you can do so much.

Rachel: Mm. Thank you for ending with that quote. That was really good. And that, that’s an area for me, that’s always my growing edge of all right.

Rachel: My weirdness is okay. Like what makes me weird? I’m embracing it. I’m embracing it. . Absolutely.

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